January 2010 - Forum Update

Jerry wrote the CONSTITUTION FORUM and took issue with its December article entitled "American Jihad".  Our exchange follows:

From Jerry:

Pretty good article except for your view on God and government not mixing and your acceptance of the over population argument.  Both deny God's sovereign rule over His creation.  God's law is the only Law for man and society. Those who do not govern their own lives by God's law internally will have an external form of government (tyranny) placed on them.  Romans 13 describes government's legitimate role as punisher of those who commit evil and protector of those who keep the law.  All faiths and Beliefs? You should be tolerant of those who serve Satan; right? Those who according to you run our government, do so because of tolerance and ignorance of how God has ordered men to govern themselves. True religion is to feed the poor, cloth the naked and visit widows and orphans. This is a personal command not a government command. Thou shall love the Lord thy God with all the heart all thy mind and all thy soul, this the first and great commandment and the second is like unto thou shall love thy neighbor as thy self. On these two laws hang all the LAW and the prophets....Jesus Christ.

Over population? Does God not know how many people to allow on His planet? That argument inevitably leads to government control of reproduction similar to China; a view I would think you do not hold.

From the Constitution Forum:

Thanks you for your comments.

As far as over population goes, go here:

http://constitutionforum.us/main_environment.htm

As far as God and government goes, go here:

http://constitutionforum.us/god_thebible_and_christianity.htm

The above links are to articles I have written on the subjects indicated. As far as being tolerant of those who serve Satan goes, those who serve Satan best are the ones who think God's laws should be incorporated into civil law.  To be sure, Christians should be intolerant of those who break God's laws, but they should not try to help these people see the error of their ways through legislation because such attempts are doomed to fail. Furthermore, if they do, this is repugnant to God because God wants men to govern themselves, not others. You seem have all the correct information, but for some reason reach all the wrong conclusions.

From Jerry:

If Christians are to imitate Christ then perhaps you have missed the point? It seems to me your view of God's Laws and Christ's teaching are two distinctly different things? Man's law allows for abortions and increased protections for homosexuals and their marriage.  So as a Christian, are we allowed to have a wife abort her baby because it is "legal"?  What about adultery? I could go on and on. So I will enjoy ignorance and by the grace of God, keep His law so through faith in Christ's finished work at Calvary, I will one day join my Savior in paradise. I hope God will lead you out of your misconceptions about His rule for man and their governments. You should carefully read the comments below and Christ's words about leading "little ones" astray. Until then you will have to enjoy your libertarian and political views in obscurity.

Matthew 5:17-20: Let none suppose that Christ allows his people to trifle with any commands of God's holy law. No sinner partakes of Christ's justifying righteousness, till he repents of his evil deeds. The mercy revealed in the gospel leads the believer to still deeper self-abhorrence. The law is the Christian's rule of duty, and he delights the rein. If a man, pretending to be Christ's disciple, encourages himself in any allowed disobedience to the holy law of God, or teaches others to do the same, whatever his station or reputation among men may be, he can be no true disciple. Christ's righteousness, imputed to us by faith alone, is needed by every one that enters the kingdom of grace or of glory; but the new creation of the heart to holiness, produces a thorough change in a man's temper and conduct.

From the Constitution Forum:

You are confusing God's law, man's laws as they are actually written, and man's laws as they should be written (ideal laws). All three things are separate and distinct from each other. The only connect between the latter two is that actual law should come as close as possible to the ideal. However, no matter how conscientious the law maker, this elusive ideal from a practical point of view, is impossible to achieve.  Despite this, it should be; a goal every legislator strives to reach. And of course, any Christian legislator worth his salt should put God's laws aside when deciding things which result in a person's incarceration. God does not want anyone to go to jail for breaking His laws.

Understanding the above, I fail to see how you can conclude that I believe that God's Laws and Christ's teachings are two different things. Jesus said render onto Caesar that which is Caesar's and render unto God that which is God's. Jesus taught God's law, but obviously, he also preached that God's law and man's should not mix. As a Christian I am against abortion, refrain from homosexual acts, and do not commit adultery. However, as a legislator who is Christian, while I will speak out against abortion, homosexual acts, and adultery, I will not be so un-Christian as to codify my personal beliefs into civil law and make these moral issues something which is enforced through the barrel of a gun. If I did, I would offend God because he never authorized me or any one else for that matter, to be His judge, jury, and executioner.

Get it? If not, then you understand little of Christianity and the Covenant established by Jesus Christ.

Have a nice day,

From Jerry:

You stated that: "I fail to see how you can conclude that I believe that God's Laws and Christ's teachings are two different things."

I think you may have missed my point and the point of Matthew 5:17-20. In your first riposte YOU tried to establish the difference between the two. I believe there is no difference between the will of the Father and the teachings of Christ, thus my citing of Matthew. Christ came to do the will of His Father, didn't He? What is his Father's will? To restore that which was lost, right? What was lost?

I am not confused by anything, pertaining to this subject, Alan. Man is to meditate on God's law day and night. Our delight is supposed to be in the law; God's law not man's and not anyone's other than His. I fail to see where you have drawn the conclusion that I have missed the point? Paul tells us very clearly that where God's law and man's law conflict we ought to obey God. Obedience, perfect obedience of God's law, is the requirement for men. The requirement of the law is the school master that teaches us of our sin and inability to keep God's law perfectly as Christ did. Since Christ came to do the will of the Father and part of that will in the Covenant of Redemption was to keep the law perfectly as Christ did and to restore the lost sheep (sinners) through His death as the propitiation for sinful men.

Christ kept the Covenant of Works and taught us the Covenant of Grace. In a loving response for Christ having died on our behalf, we are to respond in obedience to God the Father, Jesus the Son, and follow the leadings of the Holy Spirit. ALL this should be done as response to having been saved from damnation by a loving Father and worked out through the Covenant of Redemption between the members of the Trinity. As I wrote in my first message men are to GOVERN themselves by God's law.  The Ten Commandments tell us how man is to LOVE his neighbor as he loves himself. They are Christ's teaching and the Father's will. If they are obeyed, there is no need for man's law.

Sinful men do not want anything to do with God's law. This being the case their only response is more and more and more of their own law...none of which will ever restrain the evil of man or show them their need for Christ

From the Constitution Forum:

Essentially, I agree with most of what you have said; at least the things I could understand. However, you still exhibit some signs of confusion. Yes, men are supposed to GOVERN themselves by God's law, but in this instance "GOVERN" means to apply God's laws to one's own behavior and not in the sense that we should establish a government with God's laws as its basis. Second, the Ten Commandments are Jewish laws which have nothing to do with Christianity. Like most fundamentalist Christians, you have a problem understanding where Judaism ends and Christianity begins. You can't have it both ways and the best advice I can give you is to sit down and decide what you want to be; a Christian or a Jew. Once your mind is made up, then either follow or forget Jesus in keeping with your decision.

From Jerry:

(SILENCE)

Postscript from the Constitution Forum:

There are three kinds of people in the world; those who do not love God, those who love God, and those who think they are God. Those who love God want to share their joy so they encourage others to love God also. Those who think they are God are so offended by those who do not, that they want to punish these people by throwing them in jail. What these "I am God" people are incapable of understanding that the real God has chosen to deal with unbelievers in his own way and is offended when someone thinks they have the right to step in and take charge. People who think they are God are the worst kind to have running a government because there are no limits to the misery and suffering they will bring upon their fellow human beings.

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